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| Author | Topic: Animal Adoption Policies |
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Karen
Registered User
Registered:
5/3/2002 | posted: 10/16/2007 at 1:47:18 PM ET
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i7MvEzdF86Zql6X4yrF29gUnUJcwD8SA5NBO1
Did everyone see this story? I don't know much about it but without knowing all the details, I did feel a reigniting of my dormant hostility towards animal shelter/rescue organizations. I remember dealing with them in the past and finding them extremely bureaucratic and petty and authoritarian. Kind of like they're all run by a bunch of control freaks who'd rather see animals being put to death than going to someone who's not willing to jump through hoops to placate them. Finally I got tired of them and bought a dog. It was a great feeling of freedom just to pay the money and take the dog and not have to answer anybody's questions. Then I gradually started feeling guilty and changing my mind around to support shelters (mainly because of Bernadette's efforts). Now reading about this situation has sort of pushed me back into my original distaste for all the "rules and regulations" people. I'm drifting back to my original position that they do more harm than good.
Of course, as always, I'm probably completely wrong and don't know what I'm talking about. So would someone kindly explain to me why I'm wrong. I would appreciate that.
|  moljul
Registered User
Registered:
4/2/2001
From:
New York
Fav. BP CD: I'll Be Your Baby Tonight
Fav. BP Song: Dublin Lady
| posted: 10/16/2007 at 2:19:19 PM ET
Karen,
I understand your frustrations but yes policies and procedures are necessary. It seems like Ellen gave the dog to a loving family and yes, the dog was much better there than going back into the shelter system no matter how caring the shelter and no matter how short a time. But what if she had just dumped the dog on the street or gave it away to the first person who answered an ad in the newspaper? There are lots of people out there who use animals for very inhumane reason or just don't have the understanding of what taking care of another living creature entails. The shelters take placing their animals in good homes very seriously - or at least the good ones do. That is why they have the policy that if you can't keep the dog or cat, you bring it back to them. The ASPCA where I volunteer has the same policy. And they say it out loud to the adopter during the adoption paperwork time so its not something the adopter has to read - though it is in the contract as well. Ellen did wrong and she admits that she did.
However, I think the shelter overreacted. Upon finding out about the switch, they should have given Ellen and the new family a certain period of time (maybe a week) to come to the shelter and formally adopt the dog. If they are a fit family, which it seems they are, there was no reason why the shelter would turn them down as the new adoptive family for the dog. And I'm sure the shelter would be very happy that a new loving family was found for the dog. Sometimes adoptions don't work out (as in Ellen's case) but being passed around and going in and out of shelters is very emotionally stressful to an animal. They really do understand the abandonment and it can be devestating to them. I deal a lot with animals who are depressed when they are in the shelter. We try to work with them and bring them out of their shells but they start to not eat and then it becomes a health issue. And all of this counts against them because 99.9% of adopters want the "perfect" pet. No health or behavioral issues and very young. That very limited view of finding your pet eliminates 90% of the very loving animals in the shelter system.
Like any procedures, the good people are sometimes unfairly caught up in the rules but with not procedures in place more animals will suffer than adopters. And the animals need to be the shelters' main concern - mostly because animals seem to seldom be the concern of anyone else.
"Particular mention must be made of Bernadette Peters, who turns up briefly in a sort of sparkly Glinda the Good costume. She's the reluctant muse sent to help Alice with her writing. The muse is dressed like Oz, sounds like Queens and behaves like a bored student adviser." Alice Film Review, The New York Times, December 25, 1990
"I'm one star away from Dolly Parton ... and Raymond Massey is between us. I hope we don't suffocate him." Bernadette Peters receiving her star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, April 24, 1987
| Karen
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5/3/2002 | posted: 10/16/2007 at 4:16:05 PM ET
It seems to me that the shelters would be better off just getting as many animals adopted as possible. All this investigating seems to be a waste of time and money that could be better spent. Like with Broadway Barks--you know how every year there are people who attend who assume that they can bring a dog home that day and then they're shocked when they can't? Well, what would be so horrible if they could? I bet you that if they could, probably 90% of the dogs would be kept and would be perfectly happy. So a few wouldn't work out. It would be more efficient to just find that out later for those few than to waste all that time and money checking out all of them first. And some people who would make perfectly fine animal owners are discouraged by all the red tape and all the judgementalness. They just don't bother even though they would be just fine with a dog or cat. Today at work we were discussing this case and one woman said she was turned down for a dog because she told the interviewer from a shelter that she might move in the next few years. She didn't offer this--it was in response to a question. Someone else said that you're supposed to know enough to lie to questions like that. Just tell them whatever they make obvious that they want to hear. So if they ask you "What would you do if the dog got sick and required $10,000 worth of treatment?" You're supposed to know enough to lie and say that you'd pay it, even though you wouldn't because you couldn't possibly afford it. But if you don't lie then they won't let you have the dog.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to try and explain it. It still doesn't seem quite right to me, but I'll try to think about it more.
|  Mandy
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8/14/2003 | posted: 10/16/2007 at 7:22:52 PM ET
I'm in line with Karen on this one, though I certainly see Moljul's point as well. I think there need to be policies and procedures but I often think they go too far. I have looked into adopting a dog but have hit numerous roadblocks with adoption agencies for reasons like having a full time job, needing countless references (as though I am trying to work for NASA or something,) having to make promises about the care the dog (such as Karen's point about the $10k surgery etc) and needing home visits to prove the house is pet-ready. While I hopefully will adopt a dog in the future, I really need to prepare myself not for the actual arrival of the pet, but the tons of hoops I will have to jump through in order to be considered a "fit parent." Many of the private rescues (the ones that are breed specific) seem to be the most critical.
PS...I just saw a clip from the Ellen show today and it was hearbreaking to watch her so upset over all of this. I can only imagine how the 2 girls are feeling.
"Let's admit one thing right upfront: With the possible exception of Bernadette Peters, not everyone stays young and cute forever." (NYPost 2/2/05)
| jmslsu01
Registered User
Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 10/16/2007 at 8:24:15 PM ET
The rules about what to do if the adoption doesn't work out are usually made perfectly clear when you adopt. Claiming ignorance is no excuse. You're supposed to read what you sign. However, Ellen is correct. This is her fault. Her stupidity caused this situation. And instead of taking care of this privately and quietly, when I'm sure something could have been worked out, she decided to make it public on her show. Now people are drawing up petitions against the organization, when they are only trying to make sure that the animals they take care of are placed in good homes. What if the dog wasn't supposed to be placed in a home with children? They're just supposed to take Ellen's word for it? "Oh, Ellen seems OK. I guess this family is all right." If Ellen was so lax as to not realize what she was signing, then she probably wouldn't know if this dog was suitable for a household with children.
I am so tired of people (no one here) saying that they didn't know what they were signing or what the rules were (I'm not talking about those who do not have a great amount of education, do not speak the language of their new country, etc-that is another matter, and people do get taken advantage of). Shelters are full with animals that were passed off to a second family because the first family didn't work out. This is why the rules and regulations are in place. Ellen signed an agreement, and she broke the agreement. Because of that, she caused this situation. The organization has NO INFORMATION about this family. None. If Ellen had called the organization and told them that things weren't working out (like she was supposed to), I'm sure something could have been worked out. I know she says (and I have no reason to disbelieve her) she spent thousands of dollars on training and neutering. That's admirable. It's sad that the girls are upset, but this could have been avoided.
Basically the organization is damned if they do and damned if they don't. If it had been found out that nothing had been done because Ellen broke the contract, then I'm sure we would have heard some say (not saying here) that she was given preferential treatment. All the organization knew was that the dog was not in the arrangement that they had agreed to. Were they supposed to go on Ellen's word that it was all good? Because this was her hairdresser's family? Because Ellen has this genial attitude on TV? I think not. Most organizations would take the dog back. They understand that sometimes it doesn't work out, especially when there are cats involved. It happens. But Ellen created this situation.
Yeah, OK, she said she couldn't go on acting happy on the show when this was going on. Take a few days off, then. But don't make people draw up freaking PETITIONS against a RESCUE ORGANIZATION because you were so damned stupid as to not read and understand the rules. It's not their fault.
As for not letting people take home dogs from Broadway Barks or other such events-they want to make sure that the dogs aren't going to go into fighting pens or things like that. Some dogs need specific living arrangements.
Animal rescue does draw some unusual folks who deal better with animals than with people, but they know there is a reason why these animals are in temporary care in the first place, and want to find them homes. Private rescuers are pickier than shelters-that's always been the case. Frankly, they can afford to be, because there can be waiting lists for quite a few breeds. Breed fanciers can be an odd lot. But for your random dog from the shelter, not as stringent. There will be interviews, home checks, trial period, etc. They don't want the dog to end up in the shelter again (and this still happens regardless). Shelters vary in their requirements. However, rather nefarious folks have attempted (and some have been successful) to adopt shelter dogs (particularly pit bulls/pit mixes) for unseemly purposes (fighting, experimentation). Because they would get into serious trouble if they profiled people, they have to make the procedure more drawn out than it was in previous decades.
Don't mean to offend folks here with this post. I'm just shaking my head as to how this could have been avoided and handled better, even after the dog was taken from the second situation. I don't have all the information, but I feel even more strongly about the second part (how it was handled) than the first. Her first mistake was to give the dog to another family without consulting the organization. Her second was making this public on her show. Talk about fairness-that wasn't fair.
Jenn
| moljul
Registered User
Registered:
4/2/2001
From:
New York
Fav. BP CD: I'll Be Your Baby Tonight
Fav. BP Song: Dublin Lady
| posted: 10/16/2007 at 9:43:30 PM ET
Mandy, I agree many of the requirements you have been given are needless and quite frankly, stupid. I would suggest going to another shelter. Those are not typical requirements of most shelters. Unless you are looking at a specific dog that needs a lot of human contact during the day, having a full time job is what they should be looking for. It shows you can financially support the animal. At the ASPCA we ask for job information and when we are calling references, we ask about how steady the employment is and about the adopters past experience with animals. That sort of thing.
And Jenn made several good points. Yes, most people are going to be fine pet parents but its those who would slip through the system and do some really terrible things to animals. Just watch Animal Precinct a few times and you'll just be scrapping the surface. Another good point is that some animals need specific living situations including no children or someone who works from home. If that situation is not found the animal is just going to end up back in the shelter or on the street. And each time an animal is returned, its chances of being adopted again becomes less and less. I understand the frustrations all of you are having but if these policies weren't in place, animals would be so abused and there is enough of that already from people who have not been caught yet. I've seen lots of bad cases of animals that have been brought to the ASPCA. Very abused, malnourished animals and they were dropped off by their owners. I couldn't imagine what the people do who just dump their animals on the street like they are garbage though we ocassionally get those calls too.
Animals deserve the respect and safety that these policies provide.
"Particular mention must be made of Bernadette Peters, who turns up briefly in a sort of sparkly Glinda the Good costume. She's the reluctant muse sent to help Alice with her writing. The muse is dressed like Oz, sounds like Queens and behaves like a bored student adviser." Alice Film Review, The New York Times, December 25, 1990
"I'm one star away from Dolly Parton ... and Raymond Massey is between us. I hope we don't suffocate him." Bernadette Peters receiving her star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, April 24, 1987
| Mandy
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Registered:
8/14/2003 | posted: 10/16/2007 at 9:45:06 PM ET
I think its just really frustrating for those wanting to adopt an animal (and this doesn't apply to all rescue/adoption agencies) to have such a complex process. I understand where the agencies are coming from and agree wholeheartedly that steps should be in place to reduce the chance of a pet ending up in a poor environment. While I dont agree with the outcry for petitions and such for Ellen's puppy, I feel badly for the children who lost a puppy. Jenn is absolutely correct in saying that ignorance isnt an excuse for not reading the fine print on the adoption papers - or any papers for that matter. I also dont think this needed to be made into a national news story and should have been settled privately. I can only imagine the flack that the rescue organization is getting now. I would like to hear their end of the story...who knows...maybe they just took the dog back until the new family could adopt via the proper channels.
When I do get a dog, I will definitely get a rescued dog and will just have to be prepared for what that entails. I certainly think these organizations are overall wonderful. Its a shame that one situation, which really isnt the fault of the rescue group, is taking the heat for human error on the part of the adoptive parent.
"Let's admit one thing right upfront: With the possible exception of Bernadette Peters, not everyone stays young and cute forever." (NYPost 2/2/05)
| jmslsu01
Registered User
Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 10/16/2007 at 9:48:00 PM ET
Mandy, when you do get your dog, I hope we see pictures.
Don't be scared off by the requirements. Just get through them one at a time-same thing when applying for college, student loans, etc. Bureaucracy is a way of life. I agree that the requirements you spoke of are ridiculous and rare. If you don't have a full time job, how are you going to keep the dog fed, groomed, taken to the vet, etc. Some animals can be left alone during a normal work day. Others do better if they have a dog companion. Others cannot (and I would avoid those dogs). But there is training and conditioning that can make the dog happier. Keep chugging along, and you'll get your pup. Just be absolutely clear that you understand what you're signing, and have someone look it over with you. If it seems ridiculous, if someone makes you uncomfortable, or if something doesn't seem kosher, move on.
Jenn
| Mandy
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Registered:
8/14/2003 | posted: 10/16/2007 at 9:54:01 PM ET
Oh, don't worry...there will definitely be pictures! I think I need to look more broadly rather than breed specific. I've heard only good things about adoptions through the major organizations like the ASPCA and the Human Society.
I just read an article which mentions this situation is getting even more heated and threats are now being made against the rescue agency. How on earth will violence remedy this situation?!?!?! I agree though that Ellen is using her celebrity status to garner support on her side. It makes the rescue agency look like the bad guys when she is the one who screwed up.
Yahoo
"Let's admit one thing right upfront: With the possible exception of Bernadette Peters, not everyone stays young and cute forever." (NYPost 2/2/05)
| jmslsu01
Registered User
Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 10/16/2007 at 10:01:16 PM ET
Good deal. Look at sites like Petfinder, too. You can search by zip code, and many organizations/shelter have a pretty wide radius, meaning that you could probably look in northern VA, Delaware, the Eastern shore, maybe parts of PA.
I think Ellen just made the situation worse. Intentionally or not, she's made the organization to be the Big Bad Wolf. They may be sticking to the rules, but there may be something about this family or the family's history that concerns them. Nobody really knows. The article doesn't mention the breed, but it does say that it is small. So not only did she give the dog away when it was against the contract she supposedly signed (or that her partner signed), she gave it to a family who may not be suitable for the dog and to a family that the organization wouldn't have wanted it to go to in the first place. Some small breeds can be very nervous around children, just because of the standard nature of children's personalities. It's just as much for the child's protection as it is for the dog's protection.
(Now, I had a childhood friend who had a Yorkie, and everybody was happy. But it's just better for some small breeds to not be with kids.)
This is very sad. It's turning into a she said, she said (or rep said, rep said), and no one really knows the real deal.
Jenn
| Karen
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Registered:
5/3/2002 | posted: 10/16/2007 at 10:35:19 PM ET
One of the reasons I said at the beginning that I didn't know the details was because I didn't want to make my comments too specific to this situation. I didn't see the show, nor do I know too much about Ellen Degeneres--she could be a complete crackpot for all I know. It's just that the actions of this particular agency, what I consider their overzealousness and their controlling nature, jibed so perfectly with my memories of having to deal with other people of that type in other animal agencies. I've been very pro-animal shelter lately because of Bernadette Peters (and other people) but this suddenly reminded me of why 15 or 20 years ago I had been so fed up with them that I decided never to deal with them again if I wanted another dog or cat (and I haven't). So with my reawakened anti-shelter mood I decided to come here and ask for opinions because I know this site attracts a large number of very fervent animal lovers who would be knowledgeable about it.
Bureacracy is a way of life, but it doesn't have to be. Most of that aspect of life could be jettisoned and it wouldn't make any difference other than it would save a lot of time and money and more could get done in the long run. You know, like cost-benefit analysis and all that blah blah blah. The libertarians are partly right. The huge cost of so much is not worth the dubious, marginal benefit. Plus, being on the receiving end of bureaucratic interference is demeaning so we should all fight against it purely on philosophic principle.
But I'm trying to keep my mind open and not to fly off the handle about it. I wouldn't have asked in a forum where I knew ahead of time that people would defend shelters if I didn't want to hear their opinions.
| jmslsu01
Registered User
Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 10/16/2007 at 10:40:07 PM ET
Do I seem like I am flying off the handle? That wasn't my intention. Honestly.
I think it's important to not lump breed specific organizations and private rescue organizations with shelters. I certainly have my own prejudices against them myself, wrongly or no. They're not the same thing. Ellen dealt with a rescue organization, not her local SPCA or city pound. SPCA and city pounds don't have waiting lists for their dogs. And she agreed to certain terms.
As for bureaucracy, I'm sorry I said it and I'm not going there.
The fact that it's a small breed that may not be suitable for kids bothers me. Just because the kids bonded doesn't mean it was a suitable placement. That may not be being overzealous.
And the way Ellen is handling this. She's dealing with people's livelihoods. She's a big personality against a small organization, and the sympathy is already with her because she has a likeable personality, has a daily show, and has had a rough go of things from time to time, very publicly.
I don't forget that she is a New Orleans(well, Metairie, but close enough) native and donated quite a bit for the recovery efforts. I've always liked her, appreciate the fact that she is funny without doing crude/demeaning humor (and has been consistent about that),etc, and this is very troubling.
Jenn
| PTM
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Registered:
6/26/2003 | posted: 10/16/2007 at 11:34:27 PM ET
Don't be discouraged from adopting. My last three dogs have all been adopted. One from a single individual who rescued dogs, one from a county shelter and one from a private rescue organization, and I've had good experiences with all of them. I would say that the county shelter was the "easiest" to adopt from. They are more than happy to see an animal adopted out of their overcrowded facility. There was a simple form to fill out and a deposit for spaying, and off with the puppy.
I would say that if anybody finds it is easier to buy a dog than to adopt one, than you may not be buying from a very responsible or reputable breeder unless it's someone you already know. I'm involved with a couple of dog organizations and the individuals I know who breed dogs screen the prespective owners just if not more than any rescue group or shelter I've encountered. They have waiting lists, several conversations with the potential buyers, contracts which cover potential and future home visits, breeding rights or spaying/neutering requirements, returning of the dog to them if at anytime they find they can no longer keep the dog and they choose the specific puppy that will go to the home based on the conversations they have had with the future owner. Just like the good rescue groups and shelters, they want to be sure to place their puppies in homes that will be a good match for all parties. You may have liked the looks of the black & white puppy, but if the breeder decides the tri-color is a better fit for you, that's the one they'll offer you.
That said, I do know the frustration and disappointment that can arise from dealing with some resuce groups. I have a friend who went through a rescue group's application process, had a few phone conversation and drove 5 hours to meet the dog and its foster mom only to be turned down because they said they thought her aquarium might pose a danger to the dog. After that experience, she went and bought a dog from someone who was basically a backyard breeder. After that pup was a year old, she went and adopted one from a different rescue organization that was actually run by people who really did want to adopt out their animals.
PTM
| Karen
Registered User
Registered:
5/3/2002 | posted: 10/17/2007 at 1:06:47 AM ET
In 1992 I came home late one night to discover that my apartment had been burglarized and virtually everything in it had been stolen. I waas very freaked out and the next day I decided to get a dog (there was more background to the decision but that was the final incentive). I didn't want a lot of hassle like what I had gone through in the past to get my cats so I went to a pet store. A super-cheesy shopping mall pet store that only sold what I later came to realize were "puppy mill" animals. They asked no questions whatsoever and I immediately walked out the door with an 8 week old puppy. She cost $350. Other than being able to pay the price, there were no requirements that had to be met. Well, it all worked out fine. She was a fantastic dog (she died a few months ago at age 14 and a half). There was nothing wrong with her. She was just great. We were extremely happy together and all my friends and family loved her. I know you're not supposed to buy from those kind of pet stores because it only encourages puppy mills and exploitation, but to be honest, it was so easy and the dog was so great that I would probably consider doing it again if I ever wanted another dog. For a while, I thought I would never do that again but now, after hearing this story, I'm starting to think that it would be okay to do, after all. Sorry, I guess I'm just not a "good citizen" type.
|  Sister Rose
Registered User
Registered:
5/4/2004
From:
NYC | posted: 10/17/2007 at 8:22:09 AM ET
I'm with Karen and Mandy here. I attempted to adopt a kitten from any of the adoption agencies that are affiliated with Broadway Barks. I was stonewalled with a ridiculous applications and requirement of references. My landlady could care less if I have a cat but she doesn't have time to fill in papers for me for something like this. I believe that we are above the animals and have a duty to care for them but not to the point that they deserve better protection than humans. I wasn't adopting a baby for God's sake, no matter how much I love my pets. My home mortage application wasn't this much trouble. Fortunately, I found two kittens through a friend. I was only going to get one through the adoption agency but two for free was even better...and I was able to circumvent the beuracracy and they were saved from going to a shelter where they were about to go if I had not come along - and it was Long Island and unfortunately they probably would not have survived. As far as Ellen's breakdown over the situation goes, it's just shows how upsetting and emotionally charged a situation with pets can be.
Dexter & Tracy
PS The lady, a co-worker of mine, who hooked me up with the cats is a good friend of the sister of one of the Pennsylvania Fanadettes - this was completely coincidental and a lovely surprise. It's a small world after all.
http://sarahbsadventures.blogspot.com/
| Sister Rose
Registered User
Registered:
5/4/2004
From:
NYC | posted: 10/17/2007 at 8:50:15 AM ET
I forgot to mention that all of my pets, since I was a child, have always been by informal adoption. I got them through friends or they were strays who adopted me. My two most beloved pets died just in the last few years. Oreo was born in Austin, Texas in 1991. He was a black & white kitten who was dropped at an Austin pet store by somebody who just didn't want to drop him at a shelter. I just happened to be shopping in the same center as the pet shop hen I saw him and scooped him up. Together, we lived in 7 different apartments, a house, 3 cities and 2 states. He drove with me from San Antonio to New York in the big truck and adjusted to his city life with no trouble. He succumbed to cancer three years ago. I miss him all the time. I adopted his "brother" Little Bit, also an Austinite and a Pomeranian/Spitz mix dog, in 1996. He was a darling. He was four and had already been through finishing school but was not wanted by his young owner because her social life was too busy. He was my first dog. I agreed to keep him for the weekend to see if we could all get along and by Monday morning I (and Oreo) knew that he was meant for us. When I decided to move, I feared that Little Bit was too old to adjust to New York City apartment life from a house with a yard situation, so my Mom adopted him. They loved each other very much and kept each other great company. Little Bit died last July from old age and he is very much missed.
My point is that you don't have to go through an agency to get a pet - keep your ears and eyes open because surely you will be saving a life if you take in any unwanted animal.
http://sarahbsadventures.blogspot.com/
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