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mu333
Registered User
Registered:
5/13/2003 | posted: 6/16/2003 at 9:17:11 PM ET
I dont know how many of you haunt the ATC site but there is an interesting thread going regarding BP. Basically the initial question asked was "why does BP have so much clout?"
Thought it would be interesting to discuss here. Or not? 
|  MsPetersFan1
Registered User
Registered:
6/25/2002
From:
Long Island, New York & Boston, | posted: 6/16/2003 at 10:01:21 PM ET
I just read all the ATC and I'm so thrilled to hear those people actually having an intelligent argument. Well, it wasn't really an argument because all save one of those posters fully support Bernadette and think that she is a star. AND SHE IS!!
Bernadette not only has a fantastic voice and superb acting skills, but everything comes natural to her. She's a master at improvisation and connecting with the audience. She's got such a great personality and like many have said before she doesn't act like a diva. She's so down-to-earth and everyone who has worked with her professionally have said what a hard worker she is. With comparison to movie stars, her career doesn't end. She doesn't just have a one-hit-wonder. She shines in every role she plays whether it be written poorly or just plain uninteresting. She digs deeper into the roles she plays and makes them her own which few people can do. She is a superb actress whether that be Broadway, television, or the silver screen. She is a fantastic singer whether that be high notes, low notes, those in between, belting out the one's in Gypsy, or sweetly singing those in all the one's she's done previously. Her illustrious career has proven what she can do - and she can do anything and EVERYTHING.
Bernadette - you rock!
~* Megan *~
|  UCFGuardgirl
Registered User
Registered:
6/15/2003
From:
New York City | posted: 6/16/2003 at 11:15:29 PM ET
oh, good topic! I'm just getting started on all the posts at ATC (so forgive me if any of this is re-tread) but I'll add my thoughts in.
If you ask me, there are plenty of actors on Broadway who are ridiculously talented (voice-wise, dancing-wise, acting-wise) and who have marvelous comedic timing and great repartee with the audience -- yet never get noticed. Why?
First, I think, honestly, that a lot of it has to do with how anonymous and diverse (entertainment-wise)our society has become, and how easily accessible everything is. Just think about it: between the internet, the movies, 500 channels available by cable and sattelight, countless basic cable networks with new shows in the fall, new shows midseason -- how would you ever know you were seeing the same person twice? Especially if their background is mostly theatre, and not movie-related.
Bernadette, I think, has the upper hand because of the generation she was born into. Back when she was a kid (and even into her early adulthood,) she appeared on numerous TV shows, and became recognizable because, well, with only 13 channels or so, the pool of entertainers is greatly narrowed. Not that Bernadette isn't talented -- she certainly is -- but if you only have access to a group of 10 kids, probably 1 or 2 are likely to stand out, whereas if you've got access to 1,000 kids, maybe 200 will stand out. Not only that, but videos weren't big until the 80's. If you wanted to catch something on TV or in the movies (and there were less movie houses playing less showings,) you had to be sure and see it the first time, and remember who was in it. And Bernadette made herself accessible this way in addition to the theatre during this time, which in turn made her recognizable, which in turn meant her singing talent got shown off more than other actresses. Also, there were no Entertainment Tonight or Access Hollywood shows -- or things of that nature, so movie stars weren't necessarily more visible than theatre stars, depending on your location. Today, theatre stars are virtually invisible because we've got so many other forms of entertainment to clutter our brains -- and that are more easily accesible for the money.
Second, the music stylings were way different back when Bernadette really started out. It was more about talent and less about noteriety. Producers and directors, when they were looking for "broadway babies," weren't looking for "big names," but for people who could actually sing and dance. People with real talent. I'm thinking that this is how a lot of unknowns got noticed -- they got to show what they could really do in a principal role. But today, many principal roles are stunt-cast with movie-stars or TV stars who are likely to draw in an audience (because now we can more widely advertize them.) So, sadly, lots of talented newcomers never make it past the chorus. (Not that this is always the case, but many times it is.)
Finally, I think Bernadette stood out because she had a "look." The non-traditionally-pretty heart-shaped face, the pin curls (come on, now, how many of us would recognize her in a crowded room first because of her curls?) and her tiny voice that lends itself to comedy. Bernadette doesn't look like everyone else, and she doesn't sound like everyone else, and this really works in her favor. It doesn't pay just to have talent; you have to be immediately recognizable. To steal a line from Gypsy: "You gotta have a gimmick." 
***************
"I'm not good I'm not bad I'm just right. I'm the witch; you're the world. I'm the hitch; I'm what no one believes, I'm the witch. You're all liars and thieves...oh, why bother?"
-- Into the Woods
| Anonymous
Anonymous Poster
From Internet Network:
64.12.96.x | posted: 6/16/2003 at 11:59:35 PM ET
I was just thinking of asking a somewhat related question. Not "why she has so much clout" but 1) How much box office draw does she have? and 2) Why aren't Buckley and LuPone big draws as well?
If Buckley or LuPone were starring in Gypsy right now, what kind of box office would it be doing?
I've enjoyed all three, more or less, in concert on more than one occasion and have seen LuPone in a couple of shows, but Peters is a special favorite of mine. She's the only performer I will drive some distance to catch in concert and schedule my NY trips around or, in the case of her Carnegie Hall concert, even make a special trip to see.
I don't know how to figure #1. Is she the biggest "Broadway star" right now? She kept Song and Dance going for a year, the producers of the SITPWG video reportedly bought out two nights of S&D so she could reprise her role, supposedly 30% of the ITW audience came to the show cuz she was in it, the Goodbye Girl had a $10 mill. advance and AGYG paid back in a year even with Brantley's pan. And for all of Vanessa Williams records and name recognition, the ITW revival never drew more than 84% even after winning the Tony.
As for #2. While LuPone and Buckley made their names in higher profile shows and starred in popular TV series, they don't seem to have much draw to non-diva lovers. Why that is, I don't know.
PTM
| UCFGuardgirl
Registered User
Registered:
6/15/2003
From:
New York City | posted: 6/17/2003 at 12:13:00 AM ET
anonymous -- what do you mean the producers "bought out" S&D just so Bernadette could reprise her role in SINPWG? My apologies for misreading, but I'm not sure what you mean (though I am interested.)
Also, what TV show was Betty Buckley in? I don't recall her name very well (in association with TV.) Patti LuPone I recognize, of course (Life Goes On,) but Buckley I'm drawing a blank with.
I think the inclination you're getting at (and I would agree) is that people are inexplicably drawn to Bernadette, as opposed to other performers. Perhaps she just has a certain stage presence, an allure that has to do with her look and her overall reputation as a person and professional.
For what it's worth, I think Bette Midler has a similar following, and a similar "mostly miss" resume of shows and movies, and yet would likely be a huge draw for a Broadway show. (Had SHE been the witch in the ITW revival as opposed to Vanessa Williams, I think the fan base and longevity of the revival would have been MUCH different.)
***************
"I'm not good I'm not bad I'm just right. I'm the witch; you're the world. I'm the hitch; I'm what no one believes, I'm the witch. You're all liars and thieves...oh, why bother?"
-- Into the Woods
| Anonymous
Anonymous Poster
From Internet Network:
64.12.96.x | posted: 6/17/2003 at 12:38:25 AM ET
UCF
Buckley was in the TV series Eight is Enough from 77-81 or so playing the wife of Dick Van Patten.
As for the SITPWG video, Peters had just opened in Song and Dance the month before the Sunday taping. The producers wanted her and according to the book Sondheim and Webber by Stephen Citron bought all the seats to two Song and Dance performances so that Peters could reprise her role. On a related note, the producers of Sunday also asked Peters to come back when the Pulitzer people came to see the show.
PTM
| jmslsu01
Registered User
Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 6/17/2003 at 12:45:06 AM ET
Bernadette was already in Song and Dance when the decision to film Sunday in the Park with George was made. The producers bought all seats for two Song and Dance performances so that the show would be dark and Bernadette could be in the taping.
As for Patti LuPone-part of it may be due to her reputation (i.e. personality clashes with others in different shows). Whether it is wrongly or rightly deserved,I cannot say. Even if it is wrongly deserved,she still has that reputation. Which is unfortunate. She has also said that she enjoys concerts more and at her age,no one is really interested in casting her in a show.
Patti LuPone also spent several years with a television show-Life Goes On-in which-IMO-she was vastly underused. From what I remember reading from various interviews with Kellie Martin (who played her daughter on the show),Martin always had nice things to say about her (Kellie was on ER for a while-I used to be a serious ER fan. Not anymore.),and I think that she sang at her wedding (that is,Patti sang at Kellie Martin's wedding).
| angelgrl9
Registered User
Registered:
2/16/2003 | posted: 6/17/2003 at 1:01:25 AM ET
what a wonderful discussion. i have spent many a night losing sleep over what the "it factor" is and who has it and how does one go about obtaining it... and i think that i have come to the conclusion that it's different for everyone. Bernadette looks the part: she's very attractive in a non-conventional yet timeless way, she's lovable, she's funny, she's humble, she's sincere, and she has this aura that surrounds her that makes people want to be around her and to know her.
i dont doubt that she started as a kid because she was the cutest thing, and she kept getting jobs because she grew into this beautiful creature, but no one stays around this long unless they're 1)talented, 2)pleasureable to work with, and 3)professional. and i think we all know how Bernadette exemplifies these things.
just some of my thoughts...
Lisa
| Bwaybaby
Registered User
Registered:
3/10/2001 | posted: 6/17/2003 at 1:07:44 AM ET
I have to say...I couldn't agree with you more Lisa!
| jmslsu01
Registered User
Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 6/17/2003 at 1:24:59 AM ET
I think it is also important to consider the roles Bernadette has played versus the roles Patti LuPone and Betty Buckley have played.
Patti is best known for playing Evita-a powerhouse performance,but not one in which you empathize. Betty played Grizabella,of course,in Cats,but the main draw for Cats has always been the spectacle and the dancing,not the characters. You're really never invested in Grizabella or the other characters. At least,I'm not. But I'm not a fan of Cats.
Patti was in Les Miserables,but in the West End production. Actually,she is well-known in the UK,having been in several productions there (The Cradle will Rock,Oliver!,Sunset Boulevard). Patti has done a lot of "straight plays"-which have a smaller audience. Her Broadway concert was well received. She's always kept busy,but yes,I do have the feeling that she's not as well-known to the non-hardcore theater people as is Bernadette.
And I really can't answer as to why. I'm sitting here trying to find a reason,but I really don't know. BTW-Patti's auctioning some of her theater memorabilia on Ebay. No,the poor woman isn't needing cash-she just wants to get rid of it (she is keeping some for her son). It does seem a little jarring at first,but whatever makes her happy. I don't know if she's keeping the money for herself or if it is going to charity. She doesn't say.
As for Betty Buckley,Bernadette has never had as horrible a flop as did Betty Buckley in Carrie (and let's hope that she never does). Although there is a small but extremely hardcore group of Carrie fans,and Peter Filichia believes that had Carrie been given a chance-it could have been a hit (not a monster hit,but not the nightmarish disaster it turned out to be). Betty has also chosen to do several shows nowhere near Broadway (Gypsy at the Papermill,Camino Real in CT,etc). After Carrie,she didn't return to Broadway until 1996 (Carrie was in 198 . Betty,like Patti,is also well-known in the UK,having been in Sunset there and in a BBC Radio production of A Little Night Music.
And for all their talents,Betty Buckley and Patti LuPone do not have the personality or looks that immediately endear audiences to them-as does Bernadette. They also have played rather crazed women,unlike Bernadette. Bernadette has the ability to make the audience empathize and love her. Betty,to a much lesser extent,does this. Patti-rarely. Tragic doesn't always endear audiences. I believe Patti is well-admired,but not well-loved. I think the reason people are so ready to think ill of Patti-to think that she is a major witch-is that she was so believable as Evita and,later,as Mrs. Lovett.
There are diva-like stories about both Patti LuPone and Betty Buckley-I have yet to hear any about Bernadette,even among those who really dislike her singing and acting. If you think people are vicious about Bernadette-you should read/hear some of the things they say about Patti LuPone. Those who don't like Bernadette as a performer usually don't say anything snide about her personally. But they rip on Patti LuPone like nobody's business. The stories change so many times that they are hard to believe.
| jmslsu01
Registered User
Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 6/17/2003 at 1:27:42 AM ET
Well,that's supposed to be:
Carrie was in 1988. Don't ask me how that little face popped up. :-)
Also-several of Bernadette's performances have been prominently shown on PBS,and a lot are used during the pledge drives. Hey Mr. Producer,Into the Woods,etc.
| Anonymous
Anonymous Poster
From Internet Network:
64.12.96.x | posted: 6/17/2003 at 1:53:59 AM ET
Yes, by most (all) accounts, Peters is of sounder mind and spirit than LuPone or Buckley. I've heard tales from someone who has worked with all three and dishes like you wouldn't believe, but had nothing unkind to say about Peters.
I wish I could find this review of one of Peters' concerts where the critic wrote something about not being able to think of another performer who could attract such a multi-generational (he may even have said sexually diverse) crowd as she did.
I think Peters has benefited from having Sunday and Woods taped. Drama teachers show those in class and new generations "discover" her. Being in Cinderella watched my millions, co-hosting on Regis and, as UCF mentioned, coming of age when variety shows were still popular. Actually she's managed to do something fairly high profile and of note in 5 different decades now which I don't think Buckley or LuPone have.
PTM
| jmslsu01
Registered User
Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 6/17/2003 at 2:06:36 AM ET
I won't attempt to defend Patti LuPone screaming so loudly at a stage manager (during the Noises Off run) that she was overheard by the audience. While I understand that she was uncomfortable hitting up the audience for donations after the bows,she didn't need to throw a "harrowing hissy fit" as Michael Reidel said. Her people denied that she threw props at him (the stage manager,not Reidel. I could excuse throwing props at Reidel.I might even join in.).
The story that I don't exactly believe is that she slapped someone backstage and she was barred from ever appearing on Broadway again. Well,this supposedly happened during Evita,so there's doubt #1. Also,various stories have Hal Prince or Arthur Laurents saying it.
I did feel very sorry for her when Glenn Close was announced for the Sunset Boulevard Broadway run and she had to find out secondhand. No matter how much you may dislike someone,that's horrible,humiliating, and extremely unprofessional. No one deserves to be treated like that. Not when you've uprooted your family to go perform in another country and you put your heart and soul into the production,as did Patti for Sunset Boulevard.
| Anonymous
Anonymous Poster
From Internet Network:
64.12.96.x | posted: 6/17/2003 at 2:16:45 AM ET
But people didn't think ill of Lansbury after she played Mrs. Lovett did they? And when I saw LuPone play Lovett, I don't think the audience held that character against her. Reno Sweeney also should have or could have endeared LuPone to audiences. I realize LuPone isn't as attractive as Peters, probably was never named one of Harpers Bazaar "Ten Most Beautiful Women," or featured on the cover of Playboy, and doesn't fill out an evening gown (at least not in the same places) the way Peters does, which may be why LuPone and Buckley only appeal to diva-lovers?
PTM
| jmslsu01
Registered User
Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 6/17/2003 at 2:21:26 AM ET
Mrs. Lovett might not have been a good example,I concur. But Patti has a very dominating stage presence,regardless.
Patti also has a son to whom she's very devoted,and she's turned down things so that she didn't have to be away from him or have to uproot the family,especially when he was smaller. Bernadette does not have children,so she has always been freer to do more concerts,longer stage productions,and has managed to avoid expensive lawsuits involving Andrew Lloyd Webber. I don't know if Betty Buckley has children,but I imagine the Carrie experience burned her quite a bit before she was ready to return to Broadway (not the stage-just Broadway).
| UCFGuardgirl
Registered User
Registered:
6/15/2003
From:
New York City | posted: 6/17/2003 at 3:08:36 AM ET
I agree with a lot of what has already been said. Although I have to say, I find it kind of funny that people identify Bernadette Peters with more lovable, gentler characters (than Patti Lu-Pone,) when (as far as gen-X-ers are concerned) Peters is known mainly for her portrayal as the witch in ITW -- a fairly unsympathetic, domineering role.
But then again, perhaps what Peters does so well (and why we like her so much) is that she forces us to empathize with characters we wouldn't normally empathize with: the witch, the character she played in 'Impromptu,' and now Momma Rose. She makes us see the humanity in the unhumane. This is actually likely a huge part of her popularity, if you think about it, because we as people like to see the good in others (for the most part.) We like to see why bad guys aren't all so bad. We like to know there aren't just motives, but emotions behind a characters' actions.
Something I noticed of Peters' Tony performance was this quality; Momma Rose seems like a monster, but here I FELT for her. I've seen other interpretations of that number, but I've never really felt as sorry for Rose as I did when Bernadette sung it.
Perhaps we, as an audience, like to see a performer who seems like a genuine person. Someone who radiates this genuine spirit even when she plays unsympathetic roles, so that even the monsters and villians seem to have a heart and a reason for their evilness underneath all that wrong-doing.
Really, that might also be why Peters takes a lot of flak from those who don't care for her acting/singing. She brings a sort of little-girlish-like humanity to the roles she plays. I suppose I can see how this might seem obtrusive to those who don't care for that style.
***************
"I'm not good I'm not bad I'm just right. I'm the witch; you're the world. I'm the hitch; I'm what no one believes, I'm the witch. You're all liars and thieves...oh, why bother?"
-- Into the Woods
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