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Bwaybaby
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3/10/2001 | posted: 3/9/2003 at 5:11:04 PM ET
From what I've been told...even with the strike the actors and stage hands were still "required" ( I put that in quotes b/c AEA is supporting the strike) to be at the theatre 30-90 minutes( they definitely have to be there a half hour before curtain) before curtain or, in this case, what would be curtain call. A friend of mine who is a musician for a Broadway show was trying to explain this to me yesterday -- one of the reasons for them making a picket line outside the theatres is create a barrier of sorts to stop the stage hands from being able to get in...since they're still required to be there. So the majority of the picketers are there from 90 minutes before curtain until a little after what would be showtime. Even with what went on Friday the cast and crew of his show was still required to show up at the theatre Friday for a FULL dress rehearsal for the producers. I was in the city yesterday and saw the huge marching picket line through Times Square...and let me say, it was amazing. History was definitely made yesterday! Everyone in Times Square( even people who had no idea what was going on) just stopped and watched. The picketers spanned about 1 and 1/2 to 2 blocks! I was told there would have been more but many musicians found out about it late. I'm sure a lot of you have seen the pictures from yesterday...but they had two guys up in front dressed like "producers"-- with "money" pouring out of their pockets, dressed in pinstripe suits with cigars, holding up signs that simply read "producers" and "$". Behind them was the "funeral procession"...complete with a casket, pole barrers and grieving widows draped in black veils with the musicians playing a funeral march.( a little further down the march a group of late comers joined and started playing upbeat Caribbean type of music - I believe these were the musicians from the Lion King - but this definitely showed how awesome their talent is and how greatly they'll be missed!) The casket read "Don't Let Broadway Producers Kill Broadway". May have been a little morbid....but it definitely got the point across.When the picketers got to 44th street people standing on the streets started going crazy and cheering for them...it was sooo loud!! I also learned yesterday that when we as patrons buy a $100 ticket only $4 of that goes to the orchestra! I just hope this is resolved soon and the producers realize how important these musicians are! I mean...what would Musicals be without musicians?! Many of the actors were right out there in the cold for much of the weekend picketing with the musicians...and not because the AEA announced their support for the strike, but because they wanted to be there. In many shows the orchestra is an actual visual part of the show( such as CHICAGO and AGYG). As I recall even for Gypsy is the orchestra visual part of the show. Many actors rely on the orchestra and the conductor for help too. They have a special relationship. Think of AGYG when Bernadette and Tom would sing OLD FASHIONED WEDDING...depending on Bernadette's mood and how the audience was reacting that night...she would cue Marvin to add the extra verse to OLD FASHIONED WEDDING. That woulnd't happen with a virtual orchestra. And think about all the funny mix-ups that go on( not often but it happens). Could you imagine...say an actor flubbed a line - the virtual orchestra would still keep playing...leaving NO room for ad-libbing( which has created some of the funniest moments I've seen on stage).
| mikee
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12/4/2002 | posted: 3/9/2003 at 5:35:32 PM ET
Bravo Bwaybaby bravo!!!!!   
|  Kevin
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| posted: 3/9/2003 at 5:48:20 PM ET
That's my view on it, too. I know this sounds naive, but say you get rid of the musicians. What's next on the chopping block, the actors?
Essentially you'll end up with a movie, that could be recorded once and replayed. The orchestra is of vital importance to musical theatre.
-Kevin
Webmaster of Bernadette-Peters.com
|  moljul
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| posted: 3/9/2003 at 5:48:58 PM ET
While I agree with a lot you said, Bwaybaby, I don't think the situation is quite that cut and dry. Producers do not want to do away with live musicians. The complete virtual orchestras were put together in anticipation of the strike. They were not planned to just be brought in. If the musicians didn't show up the producers were going to have to provide music somehow for the show to go on. But of course with Equity striking affecting the actors and stage managers and the stage hands union joining as well , they had to cancel the shows because the shows literally could not happen without all those people. What the producers really want to do is lower the minimum number of musicians that they are required to hire. For example, many times the orchestrations for a particular show are for 23 musicians but the particular theater may have a minimum of 24 so one musician essentially gets paid for not doing any work and that one musicians salary goes into the over all cost of the show and the overall cost the producers have to pay. And that can add up over the run of the show. Sometimes there are even more "walkers" that just collect a paycheck. While $4 seems like a small portion of $100 there are a lot of other expenses of producing a show (other salaries of not only those working in the theater but those working in the general management office, the publicty office, etc., theater rentals, publicity, etc.) that add up to that $100. That's why it takes so long for a show to make back its investment and start operating in the black. So the producers say they shouldn't have to pay for more than they need which makes some sense. Now the musicians claim that if the producers don't have to abide by minimums that they will start to use less and less musicians over the next several years and replace them with synthesized music or computer generated music. And that is certainly a valid point. Producers can say they will always want live musicians but as other costs for producing shows continue to go up and up, they will probably be tempted to replace one or two musicians with a synthesizer and then one or two more and then there is the possibility that live musicians as we know them today will be a thing of the past. So clearly there are valid points on either side. I just hope that maybe the union will lower the minimums a little and the producers will accept that. And hopefully that will happen very soon.
The actors main concerns with virtual orchestras are the sound quality and also the danger they might be under working with a computer instead of a live conductor. The virtual orchestras are run by a person during the show. It's not like they just start the music and it can't stop. So if there is a big laugh, the operator can stop it until the laugh is over. Or on something like the often done Old Fashioned Wedding encore, they could play that section over again. So those kind of things can be alloted for. But so much of the scenery and effects are also done by computers and many of it is timed to the music. A great deal of a stage manager's cues (which essentially runs the whole show) are from the music. And if the computer were to get caught up (which we all know computers are prone to do sometimes) and the music freezes would the actors freeze but maybe the scenary wouldn't and maybe an actor frozen in their spot might be hit by the still moving scenary. So I think many actors not only wanted to support the musicians plight but also did not want to use virtual orchestras even if it was just for the duration of the strike because they were concerned for their safety. I certainly support live music and don't want it to dissapear so as I said before, I hope both sides can come to a compromise instead of an "all or nothing" offer. Sorry to have rambled on so much. 
| Bwaybaby
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3/10/2001 | posted: 3/9/2003 at 6:04:01 PM ET
Yes, I know its not so cut and dry. The fact is- producers want to limit many orchestras down to 12 musicans. I think some even as low as 6. This is to the producers descretion though so it would vary from show to show. And actually this virtual orchestra would replace *some* of the orchestra even with out a strike....that's the whole point! They want to minimize the orchestra and use synthesizers to replace some instruments. Many shows in the past have used synthesizers and pre recorded music( even voices for the actors in specific places or scenes in the show).
From the www.savelivebroadway.com website( which was created far before this strike):
"If it is not about artistic discretion, what is the issue? Why are they making demands to change something that seems to be working?
Broadway producers believe that the technology exists to replace many, if not most of the orchestra members with synthesized or digitally recorded (sampled) musical sounds. Saving the cost of these musicians’ salaries would mean greater payoff to investors and theater owners. Their demands have nothing to do with “artistic” needs. Their demands are purely economic. In a nut shell, the producers want to use the sterile carbon copy sounds generated by electronic machines to replace the vibrant music of real violins, winds and brass that audiences expect to hear on Broadway."
Another quote from the website "These negotiations are not about orchestra minimums - this is about preserving Live Musical Theatre."
The casts were rehearsing with the virtual orchestras a week before the strike because the producers saw it inevitable that there would be a strike, not because they were planning on doing away with all live music, AT THIS TIME. Do I beleive that eventually producers would completely do away with the live orchestra ALL together? Probabaly not...but I do think they'd definitely minimize a big portion of it( which is a huge part of what this strike is about). There is nothing like LIVE music...nothing that could ever replace it would ever be as genuine.You can FEEL live music...you cant "feel" computer generated music. Even without the musicans and the actors they still required these stage hands to be there...which was why the picketers stood outside to form a barrier. They obviously wouldn't be able to have a show but its for affect in sorts, I think, to say " well you can take away our actors and the musicans may be on strike and not show up to work but we're still going to (pretend) like we can go on with out everyone in support of this strike and we have the stage hands still coming to work on our side." As far as the comments made about these virtual orchestras being manned by a person during the show...yes, I know this...the fact is they are obviously minimizing the artestry of musicals and by putting in these virtual orchestras to replace some live instruments and live musicians, I think, pretty much demeans the hard work that musicans put in and the beautiful sounds they provide. Being a musician myself, I know the HARD work that goes into learning how to play an instrument, rehearsing and playing for an audience. Not too long ago when I went to see Linda Eder sing at Carnegie Hall...I found myself watching the cello player through out a few songs rather than watching Linda...not only is the cello a beautiful instrument but its beautiful watching someone play a cello...these musicians have so much passion for what they do.
This is why I respect Bernadette, as a musician, so much. She uses FULL orchestras for her concerts. She obviously understands the value of their talents. I'm sure there's been times when she has used synthesizers and backgrouind tracks. But she chooses to use live orchestras for her concerts. Linda Eder chooses to use keyboard synthesizers for her concerts and a live orchestra of about 12(more or less) for her concerts. I have nothing against Linda...I love her music( I'm using her as an example because I have seen her perform so many times so I know what goes on) but you can definitely tell the difference between their concerts. She used heavy synthesizers and back ground PRE RECORDED voices for Edelwiess at CH and it just didn't sound..or look right( actually as I recall there was a problem with the computer which held up the concert a minute or so and had Linda and her LIVE musicians sweating bullets)
The producers lost about 1.3 million dollars this weekend due to the strike. Broadway provides about a 14 billion dollar revenue a year for NYC so I'd imagine this is definitely hitting the producers in the "pockets" and probabaly won't last too long. I was told that even musicians from shows that are not affected by the strike showed up at the picket lines to show their support and sympathies( I won't post the names of the shows though I'm sure you can guess).
| Bwaybaby
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3/10/2001 | posted: 3/9/2003 at 7:40:30 PM ET
I forgot to add a few things...
think of all the accolades actors in a musical are given...they get thier name over the shows title( one or two of them), they each get their picture and bios put in the Playbill...ect... The musicans get a little spot in the Playbills with their names and what instruments they play( same goes for the stage hands) I really don't think this bothers them either. But just think about it...they're just as essential to a musical as the actors in many ways. Many pop singers lip sync their songs these days to pre recorded versions of themselves just as the producers want to incorprtae these virtual orchestras. I don't know about you but I've never heard someone say " Oh this is great watching [insert singers name here] lip sync!!".Usually you hear people complaining about them not singing live and how poorly their lip syncing is.One sign I saw on the picket line that struck me read " the role of: Orchestra Will be played by: a synthesizer" Live musicians are an integral part of musicals. Many picketers were handing out little Playbills which had the musicians bios in it. I thought that was a great idea and it was very interesting to read!
I know Bernadette takes time out of every concert to introduce the musicians that she has up on stage with her.Especially the people who travel with her on a regular basis( like Marvin, Cubby and Bill) She also introduces the orchestra on a whole and thanks them. Linda does this as well. She even used to have them each play a solo on their instrument as a lead in to UNUSUAL WAY. There's nothing like standing up on stage and feeling a live orchestra under you or up on stage with you!
I hate to say it but some theatre goers do take these musicians forgranted and apparently so do some producers. Though, I know many theatre goers would definitely know and feel the difference of a virtual orchestra. When Jekyll & Hyde was on Broadway they did not have an orchestra pit per se, their orchestra was in the wings to the left about 15 feet above them. At every single performance I went to of that show I would see atleast a few astute audience members ask where the orchestra was. I'm just saying...its definitely not *just* the actors that make up a musical.
And as for the musicans that are paid for not playing. Its not like they don't want to play. Its that the producers decided to have a certain amount of instruments being played for the show and 802 has a set limit as to how many musicians need to be hired. So yes, there are some left over that don't play. However, I don't see producers having this problem with stand-bys for actors( who I think are just as important).
Sorry for the long posts. I just wanted to make my point clear.
|  MsPetersFan1
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From:
Long Island, New York & Boston, | posted: 3/9/2003 at 9:38:32 PM ET
Definately agree with everything bwaybaby! Broadway just isn't Broadway without musicians and computers could never replace them. One of the reasons I love Broadway so much, is because of the culture and the fact that it isn't made up and artificial using computers like movies and television can be. In Broadway, you really feel the passion and love for the art expressed by both the musicians and the actors. I recently saw Chicago...(I know you mentioned this bwaybaby)..but the orchestra was a VITAL part of that show! Some of the musicians even acted at some parts. Even though I don't think producers would ever fully replace musicians, I think it's wrong for them to limit them. It's sad how everything in this world revolves around politics and economics. You do your job because you loved and wanted to do it in the beginning and should continue loving it. If there is one thing I hate, it's when people destroy the hopes and dreams of others just to get what they want.
~* Megan *~
| Bwaybaby
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3/10/2001 | posted: 3/9/2003 at 10:16:48 PM ET
Someone from ATC pointed out a quote that Jonathan Tunick said in the New York Times today. I got the paper early this morning and just now read the article. Its very interesting...here is what he said:
" The minimum is the maximum," said Joathan Tunick, the orchestrator behind most of Stephen Sondheim's musicals."My experience has been consistently that when a new show is being planned, I am dictated the number of musicians I'm allowed by the producer.It's a condition of employment."
"They now have minimums so low." Mr. tunick said, " they're unworkable".
| moljul
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Fav. BP CD: I'll Be Your Baby Tonight
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| posted: 3/10/2003 at 10:59:50 AM ET
I agree that Broadway would not be the same without a live orchestra and I don't want any of the musicians to be replaced by a virtual orchestra. I was just giving an example of how a virtual orchestra can work on a situation that you gave as an example where it would be a problem. They are not just a recording that goes without human intervention and control which is what your original post implied whether it was intentional or not, that is how I read it. No it is nothing like a live orchestra and I don't believe it has any place on Broadway at all. People pay too much for tickets and there is just a certain reputation on Broadway that should be upheld - they should be given a live orchestra. I was just defending the technology because it is not quite as bad as your post "seemed" to suggest it is. I think it was someone on Talkin Broadway who gave an excellent example of why this technology is needed. It is perfect for schools and non-profit organizations who can not afford musicians or can not find musicians that can handle the scores. It would be better to have the music played correctly and professionally even if the over all sound quality isn't as good as a professional orchestra when the other alternative is a terrible pit band or none at all.
Also realize that those quotes, while very valid are from one side only - the union side. I'm not saying they are wrong but they are in support of their side, not an objective view of things. I'm sure the producers side could put together some rather persuasive arguments for their side as well. It's just good to try to understand both sides because I believe, particularly in this situation, that both sides have very valid points. The producers want either no minimums or very low ones which will eventually probably lead to less and less live musicians in the pit so no one wants that to be the final outcome (well except maybe the producers. :-)). I read the quote from Jonathan Tunick (sp?) in the Times and he makes a very valid point and from someone who has actually experienced the problems. But the producers receive a lot of flak for the ticket prices they charge and they have to try to save money some place. Obviously a lot of compromise has to take place for this to be solved. Live Music on Broadway has to be saved but I don't know about everyone else, but I already hate paying $100 a ticket and the prices are just going to continue to go up. The producers have to control costs some how and maybe if they can just save the salary of one musician over the run of the show, that would make a difference. I don't know for sure as I am not a producer. It's not a negotiation I would want to be a part of because no one is going to be the winner. It will just be degrees of losers.
| Bwaybaby
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3/10/2001 | posted: 3/10/2003 at 12:28:22 PM ET
I actually have nothing against synthesized music in general. I don't know how many of you have heard of Mannheim Steamroller but he uses all synthesized music and his albums are gorgeous!! However, I defnitely PREFER live music over computer generated music. Learning how to operate and control what sounds can be produced by a synthesizer is defnintely a craft however it lacks the artisrty that a live orchestra can provide. The fact is, live music is a tradition on Broadway. I just don't think a pre recorded orchestra( or even parts of an orchestra) belong on Broadway. I can definltely understand when they'd need computer generated sounds...for instance there were scenes in Jekyll & Hyde which needed the "sound of glass breaking" so a computer provided those sounds.
I actually do know a lot about both positions here- the producers and the muscians. I have friends who are Broadway producers. I have friends who are Broadway musicians. I have friends who are Broadway actors. I have friends who are porters and stage hands,friends who work in public relations( Musical Theatre) , friends who work in the General Management offices, who are directors, House Managers, choreographers, interns,investors,playwrights,ushers,Broadway photographers. I also know people who are Broadway composers, lyricists, casting directors,voice teachers/coaches, conductors,security personnel, drivers, theatre owners, box office personnel,a friend from Playbill.com who writes reviews,an exec for the Bartending vendors on Broadway, and people who work for record companies who produce Broadway albums. So really its not like I said, "I think I'm going to take the musicians side because I like them better"...its because I agree with what they're saying. And I'd say I have a pretty wide base of knowdge when it comes to Broadway. I'm not saying that I know EVERYTHING. But I have seen a lot of things that most of the public does not see-- a lot of the "behind-the-scenes" stuff that goes on. I understand producers are saying they want to lower the costs, but is it really for patrons or for themselves? Seems that so often over these past few years saving a buck is more important than quality- for example.... these past few years they've been hiring all these big ( non theatre) names...granted some have been excellent in their parts..but many....not so much so. I do understand that a lot of it is because your ordinary theatre goer( who doesn't see shows too often) would probabaly be more inclined to see a show with a big name rather than someone they've never heard of...but look at how well MILLIE has done and they really don't have any BIG named stars in that! Most people go to see Sutton and before MILLIE hardly anyone knew who she was. I'm not going to go into numbers but Reba got paid substantially more than Bernadette did for AGYG.
Why compromise quality? Really, the producers, in my opinion, shouldn't be the ones deciding how many musicians they need when this is really not their area of expertise...that should be left of up the music director or the conductor. Last I heard walkers are pretty much a rarity nowadays -since Producers are being so tight with money. The producers don't seem to have a problem building a bigger stage for some shows thereby taking out a few rows of seats in the orchestra( which was done for Oklahoma and was done for the upcoming production of Gypsy) that obviously cost them a lot of money...so why sacrafice the music?
| moljul
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Fav. BP CD: I'll Be Your Baby Tonight
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| posted: 3/10/2003 at 7:05:46 PM ET
I understand your view Bwaybaby and also the fact that you have based it on much information and not just talking to one side. Obviously you have taken time to formulate an educated opinion. I just wanted information on both sides presented as this may be the main source of info for some folks on this board and it would be a disservice to only present one side. And since you have chosen a side, your posts obviously support that side. I have not chosen a side so I was hoping my posts might present another more objective view.
The good thing is that talks will resume between the two parties some time tonight at Gracie Mansion. Hopefully everything will be solved soon and Broadway musicals and all their live music glory will be back.
| Bwaybaby
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3/10/2001 | posted: 3/10/2003 at 7:50:55 PM ET
Ok so here is some info about the producers point of view for those interested...
A quote from the League of American Theatres and Producers President Jed Bernstein: "There's no way Broadway is ever going to stop having live music,"
Really? Because I can name a bunch of shows that do or have used synthesized sounds...
"In a collective statement on the dispute, the League’s website declares: "We are committed to allowing our artists and producers to have the freedom to create and produce the kind of theater they want–that's what we are talking with Local 802 about."
Seems to me that the producers have all the say in choosing the size of an orchestra. ( See the quote from Jonathan Tunick)
"On Tuesday, producers told musicians they could accept a minimum of seven musicians per theater -- an offer musicians scoffed at. Producers may come back with an offer of 11 or 12 musicians, but it is doubtful musicians will accept that either"
Could you imagine a 7 piece orchestra for Gypsy?? or Phantom?? Yes, I know thats the MINIMUM...however, seeing as Producers are trying to save all this money..what is the likelihood they'll allow enough musicians for a show that the score and orchestration dictates if they have the option to save money and cut some musicians and replace them with computers( which is apparently less expensive)??
"But the producers say they often still have had to add unnecessary musicians to orchestras (the procedure is called "scoring up"), or to put instruments into the hands of onstage musicians to meet minimums that remain. They also say these minimums are not linked to the size of theaters. Some smaller theaters have larger minimums."
I honestly can't think of many shows which have done this recently...other than Cabaret..but thats a part of the show. It seems that more likley their under staffed as far as musicians go.
"In any case, there is at the moment only one legitimate "walker" — a musician who is paid not to play — in all of Broadway.He is with the musical "Hairspray."
And from what I've heard he's not even really a walker.
"As of late last week, when the strike deadline loomed, the producers were offering minimums of seven musicians for the 12 largest musical houses on Broadway."
"Producers say the staffing minimum hamstrings creative control, forcing directors to hire more musicians than a show might naturally call for."
Hamstrings creative control?? What about having a 7 peice orchestra for a score that was written for 27 musicians??
OK, I'm done..I just wanted to make it clear that I have been paying attention to what both sides are saying...however, it is my OPINION that most of what the Producers are saying just doesn't hold much ground.
| Bwaybaby
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3/10/2001 | posted: 3/10/2003 at 11:51:33 PM ET
After re-reading all the posts I came across something I meant to address but forgot to. Someone mentioned how they think the actors are on strike and won't work with virtual orchestras because they are concerned for their safety( or atleast that this may be one reasons they're on strike). Like what if the music gets caught up and the sets freeze because of that....and what if an actor gets hit by a peice of moving scenery or a peice of the set.I haven't heard any actors claim they are in fear of their saftey for this reason but if they did I think its sort of a lame reason to be backing this cause. I'd sure hope the actors are smart enough not to freeze and move if they see a peice of the set heading straight for them. And I'd think there would be a way for the stage managers to stop the scenery from moving. There was an incident not long ago on Boadway...can't remember the name of the show now( James Lapine was involved in the show)but it was in previews and a peice of the set fell...but had nothing to do with the music. I think above all, these musicians and most of the actors and stage hands are supporting the musicans to preserve the integrity of Broadway and one of the things that makes Broadway so great. Please understand, this is not a personal attack on any person its just a point that was made on this board and I am voicing my opinion on it.
| mikee
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12/4/2002 | posted: 3/11/2003 at 12:44:31 AM ET
Watch out everyone or I'll replace you all with machines!!!
(pun intended...)
| moljul
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Fav. BP CD: I'll Be Your Baby Tonight
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| posted: 3/11/2003 at 10:51:10 AM ET
I was the one that mentioned the safety issues and it's a very valid reason to be concerned about the virtual orchestra and one that equity has made in a statement. Backstage during the performance of a Broadway musical is a very dangerous place to be. Most of the scenery is mechanicalized (sp?), and the actors, stage managers, conductor, stage hands and scenery changes all take cues from the music. If the music stopped unexpectedly (I don't mean went silent but maybe skipped or something like that), maybe the scenery will continue to move but the actors will think they should stay in place until the music continues and that could be dangerous. It wouldn't be stupid of them at all. They rehearse all those scene changes so everyone knows when and where everything is happening. I'll try to look for the article because it explains it a lot better but a lot of the statements on Equity's site are gone BECAUSE THE STRIKE IS OVER!!!! YEAH!
| Bwaybaby
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3/10/2001 | posted: 3/11/2003 at 10:56:26 PM ET
Please do, because I'd love to read it. I honestly just don't believe that most actors would be too terribly concerned for their safety with a virtual orchestra. If anything I'd think they'd be more concerned about not having the safety net that a conductor and live orchestra provide--meaning a conductor to perhaps help them out and guide them and an orchestra who can slow down and speed up to to accompany the actor( I know pieces are written with their own time signature...but they're not always played the same was EVERY night). I also think that if infact this claim was made it was for dramatic effects...giving the equity another reason - this time more serious- to join the musicans. Lets admit it...being on Broadway can have its physical risks...didn't Marrissa Winokur ( from Hairspray) just sprain her ankle or something? A friend of mine did Bernadette's trapeze stunt for AGYG and she'd have black and blue marks on her legs and even get burned by the hot lights-- this had nothing to do with the orchestra being live or virtual. Many of the men who played Jekyll & Hyde on Broadway had to see a chiropractor as much as once a day to prevent pain or injuries. Also, many stages and backstages are small and with a lot of scenery and people running around it can be dangerous..so this isnt anything *new* for these actors....just my 2 cents.
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